And why I can't I have any
Published on February 23, 2008 By stubbyfinger In Religion

 

I have never understood faith. People tell me it’s faith to believe that anything is going to happen that has chance of not happening. This is not true, and it confuses faith with trust. Faith is the belief in something despite the evidence. Trust is the belief in something because of the evidence. The level of trust I have that a given action will result in a predictable consequence is directly related to the percentage of times that consequence occurs. I have the maximum trust in that when I hit the letter G that letter will appear on my screen because it has always done so. My level of trust can go down to zero from there.

 I can attempt to fool myself by artificially increasing my level of trust in something for the purpose of easing my mind. When shooting pool for instance I will attempt to see a low percentage shot as easy, artificially increasing the odds in my mind so that I may relax more. This does work somewhat, but deep down I still know it was a shot that I’m only going to make say once or twice out of ten attempts. Having faith does ease your mind, even if it’s a forced delusion. I can only imagine how much so if I could completely ignore the real odds.

 Nothing supernatural has ever been proven to exist. When I watch Ghost Hunters or any other paranormal television I see a comedy, not a documentary. Every one of their evidences has been explained away. When a human body is opened there is no bright light shooting out with angels singing, you reveal a flawed biological machine that resembles many other species  and does not defy explanation, and could even now be significantly improved upon.

 The differences between humans and the four top primates is very small. The fact is there may be only a few small abilities that other animals have and primates are missing, that if they had could lead to the development of other exclusively human abilities like the desire to teach and understanding what someone else is thinking in them. Paying attention to what someone else is trying to tell you for instance is an ability that most every dog on the planet has and that primates lack, could when boiled down to it, be the only thing that’s kept them from becoming self-aware and on a similar path as ours. Over time their brains would have grow larger and they would begin to build shelters and form societies. Primates have already shown they can work together for the greater good. There bodies would undergo small changes as a result of different needs placed upon them, but they would always look like apes. So I trust that evolution is how the species on this planet including humans developed because that’s what the evidence tells me. I don’t have faith in it and it’s not a religion.

 There are thousands of stories of people performing miracles throughout history. Does that mean we’ve had thousands of gods walking among us? No of course not. Is it odd that there would be only a few that became the most famous? No it’s inevitable this would occur. Is it unusual or against human nature that the most famous of these would be perpetuated then used by those in power for their own reasons having nothing to do with truth? No it’s been a favorite tool of leaders for all of recorded history. Is it likely that only these most famous would be considered the only ones that were telling the truth? Yes to even consider that the others were telling the truth would marginalize the most famous.

 So in light of all this is it more likely that Jesus was the only one of these that was the son of a god, or that none of them were? How you answer that is up to you but if you consider the odds it’s almost as likely the letter P is going to pop up on the screen when I hit the letter G.

  If I were to have faith in god I would have to be capable of deluding myself completely and ignoring what logic and the odds tell me and the fact that religion would exist regardless, I have no idea how to do that. I would probably be happier if I could but I can’t.  I really don’t want to burn in hell forever so to any of you whom has a personal relationship with god or his son please have him come over and explain things, maybe even a quick tour of heaven, because anything short of that and I’m scewed.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Feb 25, 2008

We trust the toaster will toast if we know about toasters, but if we do not know about toasters, have no evidence they will toast, but are told by a trusted source that they will do so, then if we believe they will toast, we are said to have faith in toasters.

You did offer a definition witch IMO is wrong.

 

I find most everyone uses the words faith, belief and trust as if they all mean exactly the same thing when there are significant philosophical differences between them.

 Abraham is a pillar of Christian faith because he did not know god would send an angel to stop him from sacrificing his son Isaac on the alter. If he had known it would have not been an act of faith. If you have proof faith is irrelevant.

When you trust someone or something that trust has been earned, trust must be warranted. Faith does not have to be earned or rationally justifiable.

on Feb 25, 2008
I find most everyone uses the words faith, belief and trust as if they all mean exactly the same thing when there are significant philosophical differences between them.


Yes, I think you're right but don't you think they are closely related? Abraham had faith in God even enough to slay his son, if needed. But God had already proven himself to Abraham. Abraham had this son when it was way past a miracle to do so.

Having Faith is having unquestioning belief and to be faithful means to be loyal to the one you have faith in.

To be trustful is to believe the honesty or reliability of another. To trust is to believe in and have trust in.

I have faith in God because, like Abraham, he's already proven himself to me. I know what he has told us is true because of past experiences in my life have proven this to be true.

So I now have faith that the future will unfold exactly as he has told us it will in his word even tho I'm not exactly sure every detail of how this will all pan out.

Abraham knew that in the end it would be ok even tho what he was being told to do didn't make much sense to him. He had faith and was loyal to the one he put his trust in.

on Feb 25, 2008

Abraham knew that in the end it would be ok even tho what he was being told to do didn't make much sense to him. He had faith and was loyal to the one he put his trust in.

 

That’s just it though; Abraham had every reason to believe that his son was going to die by his own hand. God never told him it was going to be all right. He had faith despite what he knew to be the consequence of thrusting a knife into his son and what he was being told by God. If God had told him that his son would not die, then yes you could say he "trusted" God.

You can have faith without proof or even despite the proof. Trust requires at least some proof. Whether that proof is past actions, past experiances or empirical data there must be something to justify it. That's not the case with faith.

 

 

on Feb 25, 2008

That’s just it though; Abraham had every reason to believe that his son was going to die by his own hand. God never told him it was going to be all right

But he did.  Abraham knew that God had promised him that thru this son his descendants would be like the sands of the sea or the stars in the sky.  Go back and read the full account.  What we think (and can only assume) is that Abraham must have thought his son would be resurrected by God in order to make this happen.  God had told him he would have a son, and it came to pass.  God showed him all along the way he was with him so Abraham had faith in God because he had a relationship with God and knew his word was true. 

You can have faith without proof or even despite the proof

This is true but it's based on past experiences that have proven themselves out by the one who we have faith in. 

You may trust me because I've proven myself trustworthy to you.  Then later when I tell you something is going to happen even without giving you the proof you have faith that it will come to pass based on the past.  You have faith in me even tho I've given you no proof I'm going to do what I say.  All you can go on is past experiences. 

Hebrews 11 is known as the "Faith" Chapter in the bible.  It is the Hall of Fame of Faith,   The chapter starts out with a definition of Faith.  It says:

"Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Faith is described in this verse as the substance (assurance or reality) of things hoped for and the evidence (proof) of things not seen.  Faith gives reality and proof of things unseen; treating them as if they were already objects of sight rather than hope.

That's why many speak of seeing by Faith and not by sight. 

 

on Feb 27, 2008

But he did. Abraham knew that God had promised him that thru this son his descendants would be like the sands of the sea or the stars in the sky. Go back and read the full account. What we think (and can only assume) is that Abraham must have thought his son would be resurrected by God in order to make this happen. God had told him he would have a son, and it came to pass. God showed him all along the way he was with him so Abraham had faith in God because he had a relationship with God and knew his word was true.

Where the Bible is concerned I'll yield to your expertise. Do you think there is anyone alive now who would be capable of that level of faith? I guess if God was actually talking to him it was not as big a leap of faith. Today if anyone besides the pope says that god spoke to them, they're labeled as nuts, and of course anyone killing their own son because they said "god told them to" is a murderer to all, even the pope.

If God were speaking to me at least that would be evidence. Evidence that he exist, evidence of telepathy, evidence my fillings were picking up CBN or evidence I'm nuts, but evidence none the less.  

The thrust of this article is my objection the use of the word faith to describe scientific beliefs. It's deliberately used by Christians and the like to equate scientific beliefs to religious beliefs.

"Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

This is the proper definition of faith. Hope is not part of the scientific process in any way and if there is a belief in something that cannot be seen, it's based upon supporting evidence. You obviously can't see a black hole but there is much supporting evidence to believe that they exist and if there were no evidence of them they would not be thought to exist.

Faith is a religious term and should only be used to describe religious beliefs. Yes it has a common derivative to trust but there meanings have significantly diverged.

on Feb 27, 2008
Yes it has a common derivative to trust but there meanings have significantly diverged.


Holy shit they evolved! *dramatic music*

~Zoo
on Feb 27, 2008

Holy shit they evolved! *dramatic music*

it's important to note that it was only microevolution 

on Feb 27, 2008
Where the Bible is concerned I'll yield to your expertise. Do you think there is anyone alive now who would be capable of that level of faith?


Good question. Abraham was certainly known for his great faith. But I do think when you read the Hall of Fame in Hebrews 11 you see many with true Faith. How to measure it from person to person? Not sure. Job said that even if God slay him, he would still trust him. That's remarkable faith as well. THe Lord gives and the Lord takes away.

But I do believe when I read story after story of the martyrs throughout history we see great faith. Many risked their lives for others having faith not in the material world but in the eternal believing the promises of God. Thomas, the doubter wouldn't believe UNTIL he saw with his own eyes and Jssus said to him "More blessed are those who believe and don't see."

Walking by faith and not by sight is not as hard as you think when you have a relationship with someone you have complete trust in.
on Feb 28, 2008

That's cool too, but I don't think you'll like it very much.
LW

this is just an excuse for vengeance.  Since when do you need an excuse? 

I haven't bashed you at all.  Most of the talk on Bias was to Ock accusing him of jumping on your bandwagon without checking his facts.  It really had not much to do with you at all other than you started the ball rolling yet once again as you're doing here. It's all about taking the focus off the topic and onto you isn't it? 

My problem is that no matter which thread I visit you show up, cause a diversion (as you're doing here) to get us off topic.  You did it on Sodaiho's and that was the last straw for me.  I liken it to a temper tantrum you wanting to be noticed.  I've noticed this over and over again. 

I have nothing to prove unless it's just that I want you to stop which I've asked repeatedly of you and you won't.  So I had no choice but to blacklist you mostly because I can't find a delete key anymore.  You know as well as I that this is the first time I've every done this in the two years plus you and I have had "words"  and  I admit it was frustration that caused me to blacklist you because I didn't see any alternative. 

Jesus loves everyone.  He died for the sinners LW.   It's ironic that you highlighted ME in your last sentence because that's what this is all about isn't it?  (

 

 

on Mar 10, 2008

Stubbyfinger writes:
I have never understood faith. People tell me it’s faith to believe that anything is going to happen that has chance of not happening. This is not true, and it confuses faith with trust. Faith is the belief in something despite the evidence. Trust is the belief in something because of the evidence. The level of trust I have that a given action will result in a predictable consequence is directly related to the percentage of times that consequence occurs. I have the maximum trust in that when I hit the letter G that letter will appear on my screen because it has always done so. My level of trust can go down to zero from there.


Stubbyfinger,

Very interesting article...and comments too.

I hope you don't mind my jumping in late...as I've been out of the loop so to speak due to computer problems.

You begin by saying you've never understood faith yet you certainly have definite ideas about it. Your definition of faith is straight forward even though there is quite a distinction to be made if one is talking (supernatural)virtue of faith and or simple faith or trust such as your example of pressing the "G" key and having the "G" appear on the screen as a result.

So, what's the difference between supernatural faith and simple ordinary faith? Well, having ordinary faith in things has its limitations. Using your example with the letter "G", it fails; one won't get the results if the computer is broken or turned off, or messed up in any way. Whereas divine or supernatural faith can never disappoint, or fail, or deceive.

The Catholic Church teaches that the supernatural virtue of faith is a gift of God which enables us to believe without doubting whatever God has revealed. Faith is an act of the intellect based on rational motives of credibility that will stand any test. This faith which is the beginning of man's salvation whereby with the help of GOd's grace, we believe what He reveals not becasue we perceive its intrinsic truth by the natural light of our reason, but on account of the authroity of God who can neither deceive or be deceived.

Nothing supernatural has ever been proven to exist.



There are thousands of stories of people performing miracles throughout history. ....So in light of all this is it more likely that Jesus was the only one of these that was the son of a god, or that none of them were? How you answer that is up to you but if you consider the odds it’s almost as likely the letter P is going to pop up on the screen when I hit the letter G.


Yes, I believe it upon Faith. Faith in Christ whom they believed to be what He claimed to be, "The Truth". I believe Christ to have what He claimed to have, all the power there is in Heaven and on earth. While Catholics accept belief as a matter of faith, it is faith that is in harmony with reason. The Catholic mind which is highly rational places no limits on the power of God who is Infinite in His power to do anything including appearing in the flesh as did Jesus Christ. Hence, upon faith, the supernatural invisible chain that binds us to God, it is reasonable to accept Christ at His word.

The nature of this faith can be considered this way.

The first Christians, the Apostles go into the world to preach what they have seen, heard, and touched in the person of Christ. They do not KNOW that Christ is God, thus they have the choice of belief or unbelief. They believe; others do not. Seeing a man work miracles like bringing Lazurus from the dead does not automatically produce faith. We have to choose. So begins the final stage of the drama of salvation. In turn the Apostles present what God has revealed in the words of a man called Christ, and men either accept or reject it. If they believe they must accept the whole message, becasue there is no argument with messengers sent by God. In this exercise of their freedom, men are choosing their eternal destinies.


If I were to have faith in god I would have to be capable of deluding myself completely and ignoring what logic and the odds tell me and the fact that religion would exist regardless, I have no idea how to do that. I would probably be happier if I could but I can’t. I really don’t want to burn in hell forever so to any of you whom has a personal relationship with god or his son please have him come over and explain things, maybe even a quick tour of heaven, because anything short of that and I’m scewed.



How does one acquire supernatural faith? By first understanding that supernatural faith includes the following principles:

God is our First Beginning and our Last End.
God has supreme dominion over us.
We owe God due service, which we express in religion.
True religion is the true worship of the one true God.
God has told us how He wants to be worshipped.
Man must obey this teaching of God.
Man has no right to practice a religion of his own making against God's will.
God alone can declare to us in what religion consists.
This declaration of God contains the body of revealed truths. The truths which God revealed are found in Sacred Scripture and in Sacred Tradition.
To acquire supernatural faith, we are bound to believe them.

The differences between humans and the four top primates is very small. .......So I trust that evolution is how the species on this planet including humans developed because that’s what the evidence tells me. I don’t have faith in it and it’s not a religion.


Religion and science call for belief by both faith and study. Faith proceeds all study. God's revealed religion begins with divine faith that will not deceive, in fact cannot deceive. whereas science, thus macro-Evolution, begins with human faith that is fallible.

It's utterly impossible to study chemistry, grammar, history, or any scientific subject as well as religion without accepting first principles upon faith, without faith in teachers.

With all due respect, your misunderstand what Faith/trust really is and its basic role in the sphere of science as well as religion. Fiath is not emotional, blind submission to the unknowable. Rather, it's an intellectual assent of the mind to something not seen with the physical eye, the acceptance of a truth upon the authority of some one else. In religion, it's Divine Authority, "taking God at His word." In science, certainly in the case of believing in Evolution Theory, it's faith upon human authority, that may or may not be right.

When faith of science is accepted and not faith of true religion, it is wise to recall the divinely inspired declaration of St. John, "If we accept the testimony of man, the testimony of God is greater."





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